This has been the subject of some discussion among some of my caching friends of late. It's not really bothered me much until I've started creating more complex or dangerous caches myself. I've begun to form an opinion recently and I'd like to share my thoughts.
Caching in a group (or a pair) makes the hobby a lot more fun. In fact, the social interaction is what really makes it worthwhile for me. It's doing something as a team, with a group of mates, with your girlfriend. I'm not suggesting that group caching should be limited or stopped in anyway. It's exactly how I get my kids out for a walk of a weekend. We regularly head out and, together, collect a circuit of caches. In fact, the kids argue robustly over who gets to find the cache and who gets to put it back afterwards! We all claim the cache as 'found' even though, probably, my four year old grabbed it from behind the tree.
Clearly, I have no problem with group caching and everyone should be able to claim and log the find, right?
Right. Except that there are a number of caches where that's just not appropriate. Since the frosts have receded and the nights have grown longer, I've been heading out to collect a number of tree climb caches. I've even set one myself. These tend to be rated as fairly low difficulty (you can see it in the tree), but with a high terrain level. You don't need special equipment, but you do need to be able to climb the tree, hold on while signing the log with one hand, and get down again uninjured.
I don't believe that it is fair to the cache owner - or moreover the person who risks life and limb to retrieve the cache - for everyone in the group to claim the find unless they too go up the tree. I agree that this means that not everyone will be able to log the find, despite having walked just as far as those who do manage it. This is the point of high terrain caches, of course: to test the mettle of the finder. If you can't get up the tree (or under the bridge, or balance on the rafters, or abseil out of the tower...) then you can't log the cache.
This is the way we have decided to behave while hunting high terrain caches. If I can get up the tree, but Katy can't, then I log it and she doesn't. End of story.
But here is some grey area thinking: What if a cacher climbs up and touches the cache? In a pair, can one collect the cache, they both sign it and then the other places it back? How does this work for larger groups?
The same might be seen to be true for very difficult to find caches. We've found a few that have kept us working on them for ages. Sometimes, multiple visits have been needed to the cache site before we've finally unearthed it. Should we both log the cache when, technically, only one of us found it? We both looked just as hard as one another and one essentially got lucky. When caching with friends, it's not very easy to find a challenging cache, sign it and place it back without your friends spotting you! And I know that I tend to shout "Got it!" before I've even thought about it...
The other other challenging area is puzzle caches. Should everyone have to solve the puzzle before they get to log it? I'm tempted to agree with this premise, but in reality it rarely happens that way. Most often, Katy has the time to solve the puzzles (part time worker, see...) and I provide an extra pair of eyes at the cache site. Not always, but most often. Should I be logging these?
I'm interested in starting some healthy debate on this subject, so please feel free to comment below.
My thoughts -
ReplyDeleteHigh terrain caches are the only ones where everyone who claims a find should have reached the cache. Whether they should actually remove it/sign it etc is pretty much irrelevant, as long as they've got to a position where they could sign it if they chose to do so.
Difficult hides? I don't see the problem with everyone claiming a find. With the difficult hides many people looking is no different than many people looking for an easy hide, and once it's found then you know where it is. You can go back and 'find' it anytime. Otherwise there would be no point caching in a group as most of the time only one person finds the actual cache as you're all looking in different spots. If only that person could claim a find then it would all become daft.
Puzzles - again my view is that I've found the actual cache, in it's hiding spot, and signed the log. HOW I've done that doesn't really matter. If I wanted to solve the puzzle (assuming I hadn't) then I could, whether it was on my own or with hints/guidance from the CO or whoever had solved it. To say that only the person that solved it could claim a find is a bit like saying 'If ANYONE (including the CO) gave you a hint, then you can't find it as YOU didn't solve it'.
That's the difference between finding a hard puzzle and finding a high terrain cache. With a hard puzzle eventually I could solve it and then find it, whether it took no hints or a complete talk through by the CO. That doesn't apply to high terrain caches. No amount of hints, guidance or pointers are going to enable someone to abseil down a cliff or scuba dive to a cache. It's something that has to actually be done.
Hope that makes a bit of sense.
Ed
What if, for instance, five people who cache under one family name, like us, go and search out one of these high terrain tree caches? Only one of us climbs up to retrieve it and sign the log. It's not necessary for all five to climb up the tree, it's only one account logging the find. But if five people have separate caching identities, do they all need to climb up to log it? Essentially, they probably could do it, but do they NEED to, just to prove that they can? I think in the case of separate caching identities, if they know they wouldn't be able to complete it under their own steam, then they quite simply shouldn't log it. Puzzles? Well I don't really bother with them generally, but if I am with someone who has solved the puzzle and help to find the actual cache, then I'm going to log it and have no problem with it.
ReplyDeleteAdded on behalf of Andy Lawrie, who messaged me on FaceBook:
ReplyDelete----snip----
My rules for caches I log myself are:
Terrain, I have to reach the cache or know that I could have reached it, e.g. if it's a T1 at base of tree I don't actually have to reach down for it myself. If I am with someone else it is sufficient for me either to recover it or to replace it, unless the challenge to do one is harder than the other, in which case I must do the harder one.
Puzzles. To log it, I must have contributed a major part of the solution. It's OK if I have a nudge, or if my family helps, provided I make a substantial contribution.
Multis. I'm happy to log a multi without visiting the itermediate stages, but ONLY if I have bypassed them by my own efforts. I wouldn't log a multi even if I "found" it, if the only reason I did so was because someone else already knew the final location.
Finding. I log the find if anyone in the group finds it, provided I have contributed to the search or the hide is trivial. This is for practical reasons - it would be very awkward for everyone in a group to find every cache while concealing the location from everyone else. Trying to do so would detract from the enjoyment. Last winter I cached on the Brecon Beacons in extreme weather, and about a third of the way round I went into "survival" mode. On some of the caches, when the group stopped for a cache I did not join in the search but instead concentrated entirely on keeping warm. I did not log these ones as found.
Caching teams. In theory, Amberel is my wife and myself. In practice Marion never goes caching by herself so, within my "rules" above, I've found all the caches recorded against Amberel. If we both found caches while the other was not present I would want us to have separate accounts.
I try to be consistent because the strength of these "rules" is that of the weakest interpretation.
Finally, all of these are purely personal "rules". I don't expect everyone else to follow them, and I try not to be critical of those who use different ones even if I occasionally struggle to understand them (e.g. the German cachers on holiday who appeared to hold an "event" for every meal they ate in this country, giving each one a different, high, D/T rating!)
Rgds, Andy
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Posted verbatim. :-)
I dont see a problem as whole team logging caches because normally when caching as team everyone plays there part in getting to cache or searching for clues carrying equipment holding ropes, ladders, boats lifting up cachers on shoulders its a team effort I know some CO's dont like people claiming caches if they have not touched cache container (if its High up in a tree) but sometimes youll be at site for hours if everyone has to climb I can understand cave/mountain ones where special equipment needed but normal trads should be ok
ReplyDeletePhilmyboots
My self-imposed 'rules' vary hugely in application and strictness, often depending on factors such as time pressures or mood of the group (eg. no desire to hang around any longer).
ReplyDeleteI am a fan of field puzzles - and have set quite a few myself - and prefer the majority of my geocaching time to be outdoors! When faced with a baffling 'homework' puzzle I tend to lose interest quickly, unless it grabs my imagination. I love creative puzzles but they are the rarer kind! Thus, I am often happy to log puzzles solved by others....unless they are in my home patch. It's a gut feeling that there's something different about local puzzles, probably to do with the fact that I know the people who have set them personally and want to respect their efforts. Also the argument 'I'm not likely to return, so I'll log it' doesn't apply.
However, when it comes to terrain, I have to have experienced the terrain challenge to consider myself worthy of signing the log. I won't just stand there whilst others do the hard work.
I consider our caching account to be a family account - and this can include extended family such as my father and nephew, although this is rare. I considered enlisting their help to continue my caching streak when I went skiing but broke my streak unassisted before it came to it!